Comments on Black Dog Hates Skunks: Legend

Thanks for taking the time to put that together, P...

2008-11-26T12:04:00.000-05:00

Thanks for taking the time to put that together, PPP.

An interesting way of doing things but more because of hockey tradition - as you point out soccer and American football go a different way.

No right or wrong of course. I'm a fan of the traditional hockey way of retiring numbers because that is what I grew up with but some teams do tend to cheapen it of course.

Sorry BD, I wrote up a reply and it seems that it ...

2008-11-26T11:26:00.000-05:00

Sorry BD, I wrote up a reply and it seems that it didn't post.

Anyway, here's what I wrote before last season when they were going to do their triple honouring (which was a terrible idea).

Here's an explanation of why the Leafs took the approach that they did.

As for not retiring the numbers, it's similar to the soccer idea where the fans can remember the old players while seeing new ones making their own memories.

Even great football franchises like the Packers and Cowboys don't retire numbers but rather they put them up in a ring of honour.

As for the Leafs, would it be better if the numbers were handed out based on performance (ie Stajan can't wear Keon's 14 until he has earned the right)? Absolutely but it's still at least a well-thought out system.

I actually commented on the same thing above and d...

2008-11-26T10:19:00.000-05:00

I actually commented on the same thing above and directed it to PPP but he has not responded to it

imo they should have a bunch of retired numbers and I am not sure why they do not, I guess there is a story behind it but I am not aware of it. Apparently it has something to do with Ballard but then again they never honoured guys long before Ballard took over

Primeau, Conacher, Jackson, Apps, Kennedy, Bower, Broda, Kelly, Sittler, Clancy, Hap Day, Armstrong, Salming, Horton, Mahovlich - these are all guys who could have their numbers retired (although Primeau and Jackson aren't even honoured so ...) - I don't get it.

What is your take on the whole 'honour but not ret...

2008-11-26T09:39:00.000-05:00

What is your take on the whole 'honour but not retire' thing the Leafs do? Or am I misunderstanding it? This team has (had? ;)) such a rich history - why would they not do what the Habs do? So what if you have a bunch of guys wearing numbers in the the fifties and sixties? What's the story?

Not a leafs fan, but the story appears to be the two jerseys the leafs have retired had tragic associations, the premature ending of the Ace Bailey career and the subsequent creation of the All Star game to help with medical bills, and the death of Bill Barilko.
So to get retired, one has to have tragic consequences to the career seems like.

Bruce - that's too much. I remember Labre vaguely,...

2008-11-26T08:56:00.000-05:00

Bruce - that's too much. I remember Labre vaguely, I'm sure I had his hockey card.

Wow.

He must be the worst player ever to have his number retired, no?

I'm a soccer guy, so as with most hockey things I'...

2008-11-25T23:23:00.000-05:00

I'm a soccer guy, so as with most hockey things I'll compare the two. Liverpool has had several incredible #9's throught their long history, but there is no ruckus about Torres now wearing that number.

It's an honour for modern players to wear Liverpool's fabled #9 sweater or Brazil's storied #10 or whatever, and it is incumbent on them to add to the legend. The number is usually associated with a specific position although that standard has loosened somewhat in recent years. Whatever, it's a whole different mindset.

it is a way for franchises with little history to try and lend immediate credibility to their decade old existence.

I felt that way when Oilers retired Al Hamilton's #3 to tell you the truth. This practice was particualrly prevelant in the late 70s and early 80s after that rampant expansion period. Washington Capital's retired Yvon Labre's #7 for goodness sake. Here are Labre's career stats:

371 GP, 14-87-101, -94, 788 PiM

I tend to find the whole retiring of numbers thing...

2008-11-25T22:30:00.000-05:00

I tend to find the whole retiring of numbers thing fairly odd. If I remember right, it all started with the Yanks and Gehrig

Four NHL teams had already retired numbers by July 4, 1939: Toronto (Ace Bailey, #6, 1934), Boston (Lionel Hitchman, #3, 1934), Montreal (Howie Morenz, #7, 1937), and Detroit (Larry Aurie, #6, 1938)

I think it's important to remember that with every...

2008-11-25T15:00:00.000-05:00

I think it's important to remember that with every number retirement, the whole honour loses a little bit of meaning.

I tend to find the whole retiring of numbers thing fairly odd. If I remember right, it all started with the Yanks and Gehrig and eventually slithered on down to the Canucks retiring friggin Cliff Ronning in some sort of hokey "7th man" (like there is such a thing in the NHL) celebration.

Weird eh.

I'm a soccer guy, so as with most hockey things I'll compare the two. Liverpool has had several incredible #9's throught their long history, but there is no ruckus about Torres now wearing that number. People who are actually fans of the team will remember the players that have gone before, and that should be enough. It's insane to take a number out of circulation completely to honour, say Glen Wesley, or 2 months of Ray Bourque.

I became an Oilers fan right as Smytty was coming into his own as a bona fide NHL player. He is my favourite Oiler of all-time. But there is no way the Oilers should "retire" his number. I like Tyler's idea about a ring of statues or some such. Have a wall of honour in some part of the arena, or an Oilers Hall of Fame, and honour specific players there. It might even enhance the game-day experience.

But don't shitcan the number completely. Let's at least pretend that the NHL will be around for a long time, and act accordingly.

For those interested, here is a list of all retired numbers in the NHL.

Well a couple of other things about Clark that hel...

2008-11-24T21:02:00.000-05:00

Well a couple of other things about Clark that helped the legend grow. He wasn't really that big a guy. And he was absolutely ferocious. The fights were just over the top vicious, he had that old WHL mentality where you were just fine running over a goalie and you might get a guy down but you didn't let up.

These were the days when Dave Manson and Scott Stevens got into a brawl that featured biting and eye gouging.

Crazy shit.

The Sun would run a rating every year by their writers and every year he was rated top LW in the game but I can't remember him getting picked for one best on best although he did get invites.

He wasn't all that fast on top of everything, kind of a lazy skater really.

Its a polarizing debate though, just like the argu...

2008-11-24T19:18:00.000-05:00

Its a polarizing debate though, just like the arguments over entrance into the Hall of Fame. Having been there Saturday night I couldn't argue with honouring Wendel Clark, regardless of his accomplishments.

Yeah, I wasn't there but I watched it on TV and I kind of came around to it. He really wasn't much of a hockey player though - I went back through his numbers and couldn't believe how poor they were. It's tough to think of a comparison for him in today's game though - he's a unique combination of goal scoring, fighting, hitting and injury prone. Maybe Scott Hartnell might be a good comparison, although Clark was probably a better goal scorer. He might be one of the great style over substance players ever. You could see why the fans loved him from that video they showed.

Overblown? Sestito's callup warranted sixty commen...

2008-11-24T18:26:00.000-05:00

Overblown? Sestito's callup warranted sixty comments last time I checked. Nothing gets overblown on the Oilogosphere's corner of the internet.

Tom Benjamin had a post about this very issue recently and pointed to it as a money making exercise first and foremost - jersey sales and premium pricing on tickets - and of course it is a way for franchises with little history to try and lend immediate credibility to their decade old existence.

It depends on the club in each sport - what do the Jays have - a wall of honour or some such thing?

Its a polarizing debate though, just like the arguments over entrance into the Hall of Fame. Having been there Saturday night I couldn't argue with honouring Wendel Clark, regardless of his accomplishments.

In soccer they dont retire numbers.It doesn't seem...

2008-11-24T17:19:00.000-05:00

In soccer they dont retire numbers.

It doesn't seem to make any difference to them.

Maybe the entire issue is getting overblown.

PPP - well I think Alfredsson will likely be in th...

2008-11-24T16:22:00.000-05:00

PPP - well I think Alfredsson will likely be in the HOF I would say but even if not he's a guy whose number they retire for sure

What is your take on the whole 'honour but not retire' thing the Leafs do? Or am I misunderstanding it? This team has (had? ;)) such a rich history - why would they not do what the Habs do? So what if you have a bunch of guys wearing numbers in the the fifties and sixties? What's the story?

as for Mats, I'm sorry but I can't agree - I don't...

2008-11-24T15:36:00.000-05:00

as for Mats, I'm sorry but I can't agree - I don't know if its because he's a Swede or not Wendel Clark but it just doesn't seem its there for him and that's before the whole past year

I don't know about that. Things were certainly headed that way after he scored his 500th. It was never going to reach the level that Wendel reached for whatever reason (my guess is because he's a Swede and doesn't fight) but the last year showed how easily that was derailed.

as to the whole honouring/retiring numbers thing well I can see both sides of the argument - a guy like Daneyko or Clark, these guys stand out - are the Canucks planning on Linden this year? isn't Smyl a guy they retired too?

I can appreciate that

Exactly. Those are guys that meant a lot to the franchise and fanbase.

then of course you have the Avs retiring Bourque's number - that was goofy - and more and more guys who were not particularly special also getting their numbers raised to the rafters

Yeah, that's pretty brutal.

now the Oilers have set a precedent and it is one I agree with but the fact is now there are thirty teams so Cup winners are hard to come by and the collection of talent they had will likely never be seen again

so what do you do - Hall of Famers only?

Good points. What about a squad like Ottawa with Alfredsson? Do they retire his number? He was the first face of the franchise and first real captain. As much as I hate him if they don't I'd be disappointed.

Hey there, you can do anything with a food process...

2008-11-24T13:23:00.000-05:00

Hey there, you can do anything with a food processor.

Maybe they should just have a banquet or something...

2008-11-24T12:25:00.000-05:00

Maybe they should just have a banquet or something. With roast beef and bread pudding. And good beers, not crappy ones.

Smytty would like that I think.

The bread pudding and beer maybe. I'm not sure he can eat roast beef.

hunter - um, the Devils have won three Cups since ...

2008-11-24T10:36:00.000-05:00

hunter - um, the Devils have won three Cups since the Oilers last one, right? emulating them might not be a bad thing ;)

swabubba's point is on the mark of course - there's Tikkanen and Huddy and Lowe as well (cue rage from many)

The way the Oilers do it is the best way I would say and while Hamilton is a precedent the fact is if Smyth's number were to be retired then you could argue for a whole bunch of other guys.

And if you have a secondary honour of some sort then what happens if say Lowe is there and then he gets put into the HHOF down the road?

Maybe they should just have a banquet or something. With roast beef and bread pudding. And good beers, not crappy ones.

Smytty would like that I think.

I don't give a flying monkey what other teams do. ...

2008-11-24T06:24:00.000-05:00

I don't give a flying monkey what other teams do.

Canucks are a desperate loser team, through and through. I'm sure there are people who will give me an argument about that.

The Devils can do anything they like, because I remember the time Gretzky called them out. Cue the rushing to lynch hunter1909 mob here.

I'm starting to wonder what happens if Katz turns out like some of these people and equates retiring jerseys with his ego. That's the kind of shit that happens sometimes.

At the end of the day I have better things to worry about. Like my favourite subject. Me.

Re: The LoveIn a word...Lunchbucket.And no these g...

2008-11-24T00:59:00.000-05:00

Re: The Love

In a word...

Lunchbucket.

And no these guys don't get their rags retired, althougn maybe they should.

And as for the price of statues, keep in mind Henry Winkler, The Fonz, was a Royal Short Person. Certainly shorter than any biblical David.

I tell you what I'd be alright with - a ring of st...

2008-11-24T00:17:00.000-05:00

I tell you what I'd be alright with - a ring of statues surrounding the rink. I don't know how much a statue costs (apparently, a life size statue of the Fonz costs $85K but that would be a very cool way to honour players. Easy to add to, doesn't pull numbers out of circulation.

Hall of Famers only for the roof. maybe a wall of ...

2008-11-23T23:50:00.000-05:00

Hall of Famers only for the roof. maybe a wall of honour or something for lesser known. I could get behind that for Smyth. But u know I go back to WHA days with this team so... I know the history.
So how does Ryan fit in with the lesser knowns of the Glory days? Krush , MacT, Tik, Hunter... u know it gets to be a slippery slope.

PPP - halfway to forty, yes, but at least we've be...

2008-11-23T21:26:00.000-05:00

PPP - halfway to forty, yes, but at least we've been to the finals in this generation, hmmm ;)

you're right about Domi not being at the same level as the other guys but he certainly always had a weird outsized level of love from Leaf fans in respect to his contributions

as for Mats, I'm sorry but I can't agree - I don't know if its because he's a Swede or not Wendel Clark but it just doesn't seem its there for him and that's before the whole past year

as to the whole honouring/retiring numbers thing well I can see both sides of the argument - a guy like Daneyko or Clark, these guys stand out - are the Canucks planning on Linden this year? isn't Smyl a guy they retired too?

I can appreciate that

then of course you have the Avs retiring Bourque's number - that was goofy - and more and more guys who were not particularly special also getting their numbers raised to the rafters

now the Oilers have set a precedent and it is one I agree with but the fact is now there are thirty teams so Cup winners are hard to come by and the collection of talent they had will likely never be seen again

so what do you do - Hall of Famers only?

I wouldn't be unhappy if Smyth's number was retired. I know that he is no Hall of Famer and not in the class of the guys who are up there now but then again neither was Hamilton, right?

And Ty's point about having a "second level of honour" is right on - its kind of weird.

Re: Smyth.The guy was an absolute warrior during h...

2008-11-23T20:59:00.000-05:00

Re: Smyth.

The guy was an absolute warrior during his time here, especially during the cup run. Everytime I see his face I'm reminded of the mug that took a Pronger shot off the teeth, then came back to set up the game winner in triple OT. That's the Smyth I remember, and I'd be there to honour him for that singular play. He will always be Captain Canada to me. There will be no taking that away. He was a grinder, he was a scorer and played balls to the walls through it all. He was Oilers hockey.

If that's not good enough for a banner at Rexall, I don't know what is.

BD: Duracell may be brand name sure, but the cheapies they have at Canadian Tiger just throw so much better.

Tyler - Please. leave Smyth where he is. He doesn'...

2008-11-23T20:34:00.000-05:00

Tyler - Please. leave Smyth where he is. He doesn't deserve to be up there next to the greats. Why? Because he wasn't one of them, not in any way shape or form.

I remember being in the Bell Centre a few years ago and was awed looking at the 8 names of former Habs hanging up there in the rafters.

Isn't that what it's supposed to be about?

I guess it's becoming an automatic, sexy, PR kind of a thing.

The problem for the Oilers is that, as they've now...

2008-11-23T19:22:00.000-05:00

The problem for the Oilers is that, as they've now retired numbers, honouring numbers is going to be seen as implicitly saying "He's good but not THAT good". Now that might be true, but it's still an awkward way to start honouring someone.

As far as Smyth goes, he's the face of a generation of Oilers. I've said before that I see this team has having had four eras: 1979-1992, 1992-96, 1996-2006, 2006-present. The 92-96 squad is going to have to live without a banner. I don't see the harm of one guy going up for the 96-06 gang and Weight doesn't have anywhere near Smyth's claim to that honour. My eras are about 10 years, give or take - the Oilers have 700 years until they'll be out of numbers, assuming that you give the teams that win Cups a few extra.